Home Forum Ask A Member 1940 Johnson HD-15 Magneto testing

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  • #60469
    Buccaneer
    Participant

      US Member

      Joe, I’m printing off your ideas, and heading to the garage!
      Thanks.
      I just looked for photos of the flywheel with the bakelite plate off.
      I guess I neglected to take any, but thanks to Mumbles, he did.
      In looking at his photo……
      viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12145&p=64080&hilit=bakelite#p64080

      I don’t think it was likely I re-installed the bakelite plate in the wrong
      position as there’s "one" raised post that the spring would sit on.
      Besides, it ran crappy before I took the plate off 🙁

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      #60494
      Buccaneer
      Participant

        US Member

        I did some more tested today as Joe suggested.
        With the mag plate and flywheel on the power head,
        I used a buzz box to mark where the points start to
        open. I rotated the mag plate so the "Start" arrow
        on the gas tank would be where the points start to open.
        The "Start" arrow is also the reference I used in marking
        the flywheel for when the pistons were at TDC.
        I then hooked one lead of my OHM meter to the spark plug
        wire for the Top cylinder, and the other lead to ground.

        At about 340 degrees the Ohm meter would start reading
        the coil secondary reading of 6.38, ( I presume this is
        where one of the carbon brushed made contact to ground) and would maintain
        that reading until about 70 degrees, and then drop to "Zero" Ohms.
        As I kept rotating the flywheel, it would maintain "Zero"
        ohms until about 160 degrees, and the the meter would
        go "Whacky", with high readings all over the place,
        and stay whacky until about 250 degrees and drop back
        out to Zero ohms.

        I then switched my meter to the bottom cylinder plug
        wire. It pretty much duplicated the same scenario,
        except that when the points opened at TDC the
        secondary readings were very irratic. Instead of the
        fairly steady 6.38 reading on the top cylinder, the
        bottom cylinder would read .310 one second, 17.60, 7.36, etc.
        The reading would drop to Zero (as the top cylinder) at
        around 70 degrees.

        I’m not sure what any of this testing is telling me 🙁
        On both cylinders, I had the "Whacky" high readings
        between 160 to 250 degrees.
        WHY?

        Why the whacky, readings on the bottom cylinder test
        when the points opened?


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        #60497
        joesnuffy
        Participant

          I would clean both brush holder cylinders with that hold brushes with a small weapons bore brush like mumbles did I think he used like a 22 riffle bore brush or a brush you can spin inside the cylinder with a drill etc. The bottom cylinder especially and try to get both brush holder cylinders to have same results when you test them with meter. At this point I think you may have an issue with that particular brush for lower cylinder its having intermediate continuity with its shell. Get both insides of brush cylinder holders clean as a whistle and I think you may have a good running engine.

          I am also guessing their is a spring that resides under brush. Make sure to lightly sand the top and bottom of that spring with a very find sand paper like wet and dry paper.

          I am also studying your diagram. I would think the 6.38ohms should drop to zero before points break and they are not the 6.38ohms returns before points break. I wish you had a known good flywheel with bakelite and tab to test that like you just did. I will study the diagram and report back I need to look at it hard.

          One question for you is when you measure between the secondaries/plug wire ends you get 6.38 ohms?? I am guessing you do. If you ground one secondary/plug wire does the 6.38 ohms go to zero?

          Could your plug wires be backwards?? Crazy question but what if.

          The other thing I am thinking is that bakelite and tab is off since 6.38 ohms returns before points break. To the best of my knowledge when points break one brush should be grounded and piston grounded should be on bottom of stroke. If not I am having trouble figuring that out unless tab alignment is off or plug wires are reversed.

          After studying diagram bakelite and tab could be off like 22-25 degrees or more. If you start motor and use timing light it will tell you if your getting double fire on cylinder. You may just need to spin flywheel with a rope or drill to check. If plug wires aren’t reversed I would try timing light to see if your getting double fire on cylinders and if so I would guess tab alignment.

          Joe

          ps I did so more thinking if brass tab is off it would only have to be off like 1/2 inch. That is not much. If your getting double fire I think that would be the tab is off a tad 3 inch diameter approximately where tab is times 3.14 (pie) times 22 degrees off divided by 360 degrees equals .57 inches or about 1/2 inch. Just thinking how much it would need to be off not much.

          pss Now this is a crazy thought please don’t shoot me I am thinking outside of box. I was also watching your motor run no recoil on it? I am guessing motor spins clockwise like most when running could I be wrong? Your diagram would make more sense if motor ran opposite direction.

          #60508
          Buccaneer
          Participant

            US Member
            quote joesnuffy:

            I would clean both brush holder cylinders with that hold brushes with a small weapons bore brush like mumbles did I think he used like a 22 riffle bore brush or a brush you can spin inside the cylinder with a drill etc. The bottom cylinder especially and try to get both brush holder cylinders to have same results when you test them with meter. At this point I think you may have an issue with that particular brush for lower cylinder its having intermediate continuity with its shell. Get both insides of brush cylinder holders clean as a whistle and I think you may have a good running engine.
            Joe, if I remember correctly, I used the Dremmel and round brush to clean
            the insides of the tower brass cylinders, but it won’t hurt to clean them
            some more.

            I am also guessing their is a spring that resides under brush. Make sure to lightly sand the top and bottom of that spring with a very find sand paper like wet and dry paper.
            Yes, there’s a light spring under each brush. I suppose if it were too stiff
            the carbon brush would wear out fast

            I am also studying your diagram. I would think the 6.38ohms should drop to zero before points break and they are not the 6.38ohms returns before points break. I wish you had a known good flywheel with bakelite and tab to test that like you just did. I will study the diagram and report back I need to look at it hard.
            Electrical engineering is above my paygrade, lol
            I’m not sure on the timing of the magnetic flux, points opening, etc. 😕

            One question for you is when you measure between the secondaries/plug wire ends you get 6.38 ohms?? I am guessing you do. If you ground one secondary/plug wire does the 6.38 ohms go to zero?
            Yes, when I measure between the two plug wires I get 6.38 ohms

            Could your plug wires be backwards?? Crazy question but what if.
            I wrote down that question to myself the other day, "How did I determine
            which wire is for the top cylinder?" I remembered later on that Garry
            mentioned to use an Ohm meter to see which wire had continuity
            as the given piston was nearing TDC. Worst part is, I’m think
            I tried switching wires once, but not sure!

            The other thing I am thinking is that bakelite and tab is off since 6.38 ohms returns before points break. To the best of my knowledge when points break one brush should be grounded and piston grounded should be on bottom of stroke. If not I am having trouble figuring that out unless tab alignment is off or plug wires are reversed.

            After studying diagram bakelite and tab could be off like 22-25 degrees or more. If you start motor and use timing light it will tell you if your getting double fire on cylinder. You may just need to spin flywheel with a rope or drill to check. If plug wires aren’t reversed I would try timing light to see if your getting double fire on cylinders and if so I would guess tab alignment.
            The bakelite plate in the flywheel is held in with three rivets, so if I reset it, it would have to rotate
            120 degrees one way or the other. As I posted prior, showing the link for Mumbers bakelite plate
            removed, there’s a post in one spot only, for the grounding spring to contact underneath the brass
            contact in the bakelite plate, so I don’t believe it’s put together incorrectly. I wouldn’t have taken
            it apart to start with had it run okay.

            Joe

            ps I did so more thinking if brass tab is off it would only have to be off like 1/2 inch. That is not much. If your getting double fire I think that would be the tab is off a tad 3 inch diameter approximately where tab is times 3.14 (pie) times 22 degrees off divided by 360 degrees equals .57 inches or about 1/2 inch. Just thinking how much it would need to be off not much.

            pss Now this is a crazy thought and I am thinking outside of box. I was also watching your motor run no recoil on it? I am guessing motor spins clockwise like most when running could I be wrong? Your diagram would make more sense if motor ran opposite direction.


            Don’t scare me like this Joe, lol. Is there any outboards that run counter clockwise? It didn’t have a rewind when I got it,
            but since then my uncle found an empty rewind shell. I’ll look at it tomorrow to set my mind at ease!
            Thanks for all the "Thinking"
            Bucc

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            #60510
            joesnuffy
            Participant

              I made a mistake on this please disregard I see what your saying that bakelite would have to be off 120 degrees. Looking at everything it could be most likely not since I am sure you paid strict attention. Since motor fires at the 0 degree mark then 6.8 ohms would return about 20 degree mark then motor would fire at 180 degree mark and 6.8ohms would return about 200 degrees if you rotated the bakelite 120 degrees to the right. I wonder if someone has a picture of where tab should be in correlation to flywheel key?

              Motor needs to be checked for double fire. I think that can be done using a drill or rope no need to start motor. By spinning flywheel if timing light lights up both marks you made when hooked to one plug wire then its double firing. You may get double fire on one cylinder and not the other but that would let you know which brush system isn’t working.

              If your getting double fire on both cylinders something is wrong. Looking at your diagram it would almost make more sense if motor spun the opposite direction. If you do get double fire testing then try spinning the flywheel in reverse to see if you get double fire??

              I know some outboards were made that run counterclockwise but most likely not one with only 2.5hp. My Yamaha 2 stroke golf cart runs both clockwise and counterclockwise. Clockwise for fwd and counterclockwise for reverse.

              Also look at prop see which way it cuts the water by rotating the flywheel clockwise to see if that’s correct.

              Joe

              #60522
              Buccaneer
              Participant

                US Member
                quote joesnuffy:

                I wonder if someone has a picture of where tab should be in correlation to flywheel key?
                I could probably figure out if Mumbles and my flywheels are assembled the same
                from his photo below.

                Motor needs to be checked for double fire. I think that can be done using a drill or rope no need to start motor. By spinning flywheel if timing light lights up both marks you made when hooked to one plug wire then its double firing. You may get double fire on one cylinder and not the other but that would let you know which brush system isn’t working.
                I’ll try this, but it would be handy if I had three arms. It would probably take an
                act of God to get the wife in the garage, lol

                If your getting double fire on both cylinders something is wrong. Looking at your diagram it would almost make more sense if motor spun the opposite direction. If you do get double fire testing then try spinning the flywheel in reverse to see if you get double fire??
                I hope I don’t end up looking for a left hand prop 😮

                I know some outboards were made that run counterclockwise but most likely not one with only 2.5hp. My Yamaha 2 stroke golf cart runs both clockwise and counterclockwise. Clockwise for fwd and counterclockwise for reverse.

                Also look at prop see which way it cuts the water by rotating the flywheel clockwise to see if that’s correct.
                Will do, thanks for the "School of Outboard Learnin"

                Joe


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                #60524
                joesnuffy
                Participant

                  I know about getting the wife’s help. I have to ask mine very nicely to get her to even watch for spark on spark plugs lol. And forget about asking her to get her hands greasy.

                  Joe

                  #60529
                  joesnuffy
                  Participant

                    If bakelite and tab was off 120 degrees to the left looking at your picture then engine will still fire at 0 degrees and 180 degrees because points lobes are set in stone on flywheel or points cam. (points cam upside down? then where would engine fire. Since 2 lobes might not make a difference)

                    One brushes would make contact with tab in flywheel at 320 degrees to 40 degrees which allows a 0 degrees fire with 1 cylinder grounded Then at 140 degrees they contact tab in flywheel has contact with other brush to 220 degrees and allows fire at 180 degrees with other cylinder grounded. That would allow engine to fire while 1 cylinder is killed by a brush on each stroke.

                    It would be nice to see a pic of the flywheel tab in correlation to the flywheel key. Hopefully someone reading this has one so we can rule that out. I’ve looked all over internet can’t find one.

                    Also after I looked at your some of your pictures I see the throttle advance moves to the right for faster so engine would spin clockwise more than likely. It would have to move to the left for faster if counterclockwise.

                    Joe

                    ps I am guessing if you got double fire on both cylinders after checking bakelite could be off 120 degrees or points cam is upside down which I don’t think would make a difference since it has 2 lobes but worth checking.

                    #60539
                    Buccaneer
                    Participant

                      US Member
                      quote joesnuffy:

                      If bakelite and tab was off 120 degrees to the left looking at your picture then engine will still fire at 0 degrees and 180 degrees because points lobes are set in stone on flywheel or points cam. (points cam upside down? then where would engine fire. Since 2 lobes might not make a difference)
                      Joe, I took a photo of the inside of my flywheel showing the keyway and
                      the close approximation of the rivets, marked by the copper washers.
                      Will try to compare mine to Mumbles

                      It would be nice to see a pic of the flywheel tab in correlation to the flywheel key. Hopefully someone reading this has one so we can rule that out. I’ve looked all over internet can’t find one.

                      Also after I looked at your some of your pictures I see the throttle advance moves to the right for faster so engine would spin clockwise more than likely. It would have to move to the left for faster if counterclockwise.
                      Yes, engine runs normal, clockwise direction. Looked at a couple HS-10 Johnson
                      on Youtube just to make sure!
                      This morning I re-cleaned the carbon brushes, their springs, and the brass bore
                      they go into. Also removed the brush tower screws to look underneath.
                      I could only lift them about 1/8" because of the wires soldered on, but
                      using a light and mirror I seen no signs of arcing. For the heck of it, I
                      put a piece of "fish" (insulating) paper under each tower, and behind
                      each tower along the laminates. Then I coated what I could on the
                      bakelite towers with Super Corona Dope. Just letting it dry for a while,
                      then will put it back together, and see if I can test it with the timing light.
                      Bucc

                      Joe

                      ps I am guessing if you got double fire on both cylinders after checking bakelite could be off 120 degrees or points cam is upside down which I don’t think would make a difference since it has 2 lobes but worth checking.


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                      #60547
                      Buccaneer
                      Participant

                        US Member

                        I put the magneto and flywheel back on the HD-15.
                        Hooked up a timing light and spun the engine over
                        with a drill, with the top plug wire hooked up first.
                        Nice steady indication near my TDC mark, with
                        no wild flashes that I could detect. Switched to the
                        bottom plug wire, and same results.
                        Threw the outboard in the test barrel and
                        finally got it to stay running by tweaking
                        the High and Low needles. Unfortunately,
                        it’s singing the same crappy, irratic tune.
                        Think I’m done with this one for now so
                        I can concentrate on other things,
                        but thanks for all the help Joe!

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