Home › Forum › Ask A Member › 1940 Johnson HD-15 Magneto testing
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June 27, 2017 at 3:32 pm #60469
Joe, I’m printing off your ideas, and heading to the garage!
Thanks.
I just looked for photos of the flywheel with the bakelite plate off.
I guess I neglected to take any, but thanks to Mumbles, he did.
In looking at his photo……
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12145&p=64080&hilit=bakelite#p64080I don’t think it was likely I re-installed the bakelite plate in the wrong
position as there’s "one" raised post that the spring would sit on.
Besides, it ran crappy before I took the plate off 🙁Prepare to be boarded!
June 27, 2017 at 11:43 pm #60494I did some more tested today as Joe suggested.
With the mag plate and flywheel on the power head,
I used a buzz box to mark where the points start to
open. I rotated the mag plate so the "Start" arrow
on the gas tank would be where the points start to open.
The "Start" arrow is also the reference I used in marking
the flywheel for when the pistons were at TDC.
I then hooked one lead of my OHM meter to the spark plug
wire for the Top cylinder, and the other lead to ground.At about 340 degrees the Ohm meter would start reading
the coil secondary reading of 6.38, ( I presume this is
where one of the carbon brushed made contact to ground) and would maintain
that reading until about 70 degrees, and then drop to "Zero" Ohms.
As I kept rotating the flywheel, it would maintain "Zero"
ohms until about 160 degrees, and the the meter would
go "Whacky", with high readings all over the place,
and stay whacky until about 250 degrees and drop back
out to Zero ohms.I then switched my meter to the bottom cylinder plug
wire. It pretty much duplicated the same scenario,
except that when the points opened at TDC the
secondary readings were very irratic. Instead of the
fairly steady 6.38 reading on the top cylinder, the
bottom cylinder would read .310 one second, 17.60, 7.36, etc.
The reading would drop to Zero (as the top cylinder) at
around 70 degrees.I’m not sure what any of this testing is telling me 🙁
On both cylinders, I had the "Whacky" high readings
between 160 to 250 degrees.
WHY?Why the whacky, readings on the bottom cylinder test
when the points opened?Prepare to be boarded!
June 28, 2017 at 12:08 am #60497I would clean both brush holder cylinders with that hold brushes with a small weapons bore brush like mumbles did I think he used like a 22 riffle bore brush or a brush you can spin inside the cylinder with a drill etc. The bottom cylinder especially and try to get both brush holder cylinders to have same results when you test them with meter. At this point I think you may have an issue with that particular brush for lower cylinder its having intermediate continuity with its shell. Get both insides of brush cylinder holders clean as a whistle and I think you may have a good running engine.
I am also guessing their is a spring that resides under brush. Make sure to lightly sand the top and bottom of that spring with a very find sand paper like wet and dry paper.
I am also studying your diagram. I would think the 6.38ohms should drop to zero before points break and they are not the 6.38ohms returns before points break. I wish you had a known good flywheel with bakelite and tab to test that like you just did. I will study the diagram and report back I need to look at it hard.
One question for you is when you measure between the secondaries/plug wire ends you get 6.38 ohms?? I am guessing you do. If you ground one secondary/plug wire does the 6.38 ohms go to zero?
Could your plug wires be backwards?? Crazy question but what if.
The other thing I am thinking is that bakelite and tab is off since 6.38 ohms returns before points break. To the best of my knowledge when points break one brush should be grounded and piston grounded should be on bottom of stroke. If not I am having trouble figuring that out unless tab alignment is off or plug wires are reversed.
After studying diagram bakelite and tab could be off like 22-25 degrees or more. If you start motor and use timing light it will tell you if your getting double fire on cylinder. You may just need to spin flywheel with a rope or drill to check. If plug wires aren’t reversed I would try timing light to see if your getting double fire on cylinders and if so I would guess tab alignment.
Joe
ps I did so more thinking if brass tab is off it would only have to be off like 1/2 inch. That is not much. If your getting double fire I think that would be the tab is off a tad 3 inch diameter approximately where tab is times 3.14 (pie) times 22 degrees off divided by 360 degrees equals .57 inches or about 1/2 inch. Just thinking how much it would need to be off not much.
pss Now this is a crazy thought please don’t shoot me I am thinking outside of box. I was also watching your motor run no recoil on it? I am guessing motor spins clockwise like most when running could I be wrong? Your diagram would make more sense if motor ran opposite direction.
June 28, 2017 at 2:45 am #60508quote joesnuffy:I would clean both brush holder cylinders with that hold brushes with a small weapons bore brush like mumbles did I think he used like a 22 riffle bore brush or a brush you can spin inside the cylinder with a drill etc. The bottom cylinder especially and try to get both brush holder cylinders to have same results when you test them with meter. At this point I think you may have an issue with that particular brush for lower cylinder its having intermediate continuity with its shell. Get both insides of brush cylinder holders clean as a whistle and I think you may have a good running engine.
Joe, if I remember correctly, I used the Dremmel and round brush to clean
the insides of the tower brass cylinders, but it won’t hurt to clean them
some more.I am also guessing their is a spring that resides under brush. Make sure to lightly sand the top and bottom of that spring with a very find sand paper like wet and dry paper.
Yes, there’s a light spring under each brush. I suppose if it were too stiff
the carbon brush would wear out fastI am also studying your diagram. I would think the 6.38ohms should drop to zero before points break and they are not the 6.38ohms returns before points break. I wish you had a known good flywheel with bakelite and tab to test that like you just did. I will study the diagram and report back I need to look at it hard.
Electrical engineering is above my paygrade, lol
I’m not sure on the timing of the magnetic flux, points opening, etc. 😕One question for you is when you measure between the secondaries/plug wire ends you get 6.38 ohms?? I am guessing you do. If you ground one secondary/plug wire does the 6.38 ohms go to zero?
Yes, when I measure between the two plug wires I get 6.38 ohmsCould your plug wires be backwards?? Crazy question but what if.
I wrote down that question to myself the other day, "How did I determine
which wire is for the top cylinder?" I remembered later on that Garry
mentioned to use an Ohm meter to see which wire had continuity
as the given piston was nearing TDC. Worst part is, I’m think
I tried switching wires once, but not sure!The other thing I am thinking is that bakelite and tab is off since 6.38 ohms returns before points break. To the best of my knowledge when points break one brush should be grounded and piston grounded should be on bottom of stroke. If not I am having trouble figuring that out unless tab alignment is off or plug wires are reversed.
After studying diagram bakelite and tab could be off like 22-25 degrees or more. If you start motor and use timing light it will tell you if your getting double fire on cylinder. You may just need to spin flywheel with a rope or drill to check. If plug wires aren’t reversed I would try timing light to see if your getting double fire on cylinders and if so I would guess tab alignment.
The bakelite plate in the flywheel is held in with three rivets, so if I reset it, it would have to rotate
120 degrees one way or the other. As I posted prior, showing the link for Mumbers bakelite plate
removed, there’s a post in one spot only, for the grounding spring to contact underneath the brass
contact in the bakelite plate, so I don’t believe it’s put together incorrectly. I wouldn’t have taken
it apart to start with had it run okay.
Joeps I did so more thinking if brass tab is off it would only have to be off like 1/2 inch. That is not much. If your getting double fire I think that would be the tab is off a tad 3 inch diameter approximately where tab is times 3.14 (pie) times 22 degrees off divided by 360 degrees equals .57 inches or about 1/2 inch. Just thinking how much it would need to be off not much.
pss Now this is a crazy thought and I am thinking outside of box. I was also watching your motor run no recoil on it? I am guessing motor spins clockwise like most when running could I be wrong? Your diagram would make more sense if motor ran opposite direction.
Don’t scare me like this Joe, lol. Is there any outboards that run counter clockwise? It didn’t have a rewind when I got it,
but since then my uncle found an empty rewind shell. I’ll look at it tomorrow to set my mind at ease!
Thanks for all the "Thinking"
BuccPrepare to be boarded!
June 28, 2017 at 3:15 am #60510I made a mistake on this please disregard I see what your saying that bakelite would have to be off 120 degrees. Looking at everything it could be most likely not since I am sure you paid strict attention. Since motor fires at the 0 degree mark then 6.8 ohms would return about 20 degree mark then motor would fire at 180 degree mark and 6.8ohms would return about 200 degrees if you rotated the bakelite 120 degrees to the right. I wonder if someone has a picture of where tab should be in correlation to flywheel key?
Motor needs to be checked for double fire. I think that can be done using a drill or rope no need to start motor. By spinning flywheel if timing light lights up both marks you made when hooked to one plug wire then its double firing. You may get double fire on one cylinder and not the other but that would let you know which brush system isn’t working.
If your getting double fire on both cylinders something is wrong. Looking at your diagram it would almost make more sense if motor spun the opposite direction. If you do get double fire testing then try spinning the flywheel in reverse to see if you get double fire??
I know some outboards were made that run counterclockwise but most likely not one with only 2.5hp. My Yamaha 2 stroke golf cart runs both clockwise and counterclockwise. Clockwise for fwd and counterclockwise for reverse.
Also look at prop see which way it cuts the water by rotating the flywheel clockwise to see if that’s correct.
Joe
June 28, 2017 at 12:31 pm #60522quote joesnuffy:I wonder if someone has a picture of where tab should be in correlation to flywheel key?
I could probably figure out if Mumbles and my flywheels are assembled the same
from his photo below.Motor needs to be checked for double fire. I think that can be done using a drill or rope no need to start motor. By spinning flywheel if timing light lights up both marks you made when hooked to one plug wire then its double firing. You may get double fire on one cylinder and not the other but that would let you know which brush system isn’t working.
I’ll try this, but it would be handy if I had three arms. It would probably take an
act of God to get the wife in the garage, lolIf your getting double fire on both cylinders something is wrong. Looking at your diagram it would almost make more sense if motor spun the opposite direction. If you do get double fire testing then try spinning the flywheel in reverse to see if you get double fire??
I hope I don’t end up looking for a left hand prop 😮I know some outboards were made that run counterclockwise but most likely not one with only 2.5hp. My Yamaha 2 stroke golf cart runs both clockwise and counterclockwise. Clockwise for fwd and counterclockwise for reverse.
Also look at prop see which way it cuts the water by rotating the flywheel clockwise to see if that’s correct.
Will do, thanks for the "School of Outboard Learnin"Joe
Prepare to be boarded!
June 28, 2017 at 12:41 pm #60524I know about getting the wife’s help. I have to ask mine very nicely to get her to even watch for spark on spark plugs lol. And forget about asking her to get her hands greasy.
Joe
June 28, 2017 at 1:10 pm #60529If bakelite and tab was off 120 degrees to the left looking at your picture then engine will still fire at 0 degrees and 180 degrees because points lobes are set in stone on flywheel or points cam. (points cam upside down? then where would engine fire. Since 2 lobes might not make a difference)
One brushes would make contact with tab in flywheel at 320 degrees to 40 degrees which allows a 0 degrees fire with 1 cylinder grounded Then at 140 degrees they contact tab in flywheel has contact with other brush to 220 degrees and allows fire at 180 degrees with other cylinder grounded. That would allow engine to fire while 1 cylinder is killed by a brush on each stroke.
It would be nice to see a pic of the flywheel tab in correlation to the flywheel key. Hopefully someone reading this has one so we can rule that out. I’ve looked all over internet can’t find one.
Also after I looked at your some of your pictures I see the throttle advance moves to the right for faster so engine would spin clockwise more than likely. It would have to move to the left for faster if counterclockwise.
Joe
ps I am guessing if you got double fire on both cylinders after checking bakelite could be off 120 degrees or points cam is upside down which I don’t think would make a difference since it has 2 lobes but worth checking.
June 28, 2017 at 5:00 pm #60539quote joesnuffy:If bakelite and tab was off 120 degrees to the left looking at your picture then engine will still fire at 0 degrees and 180 degrees because points lobes are set in stone on flywheel or points cam. (points cam upside down? then where would engine fire. Since 2 lobes might not make a difference)
Joe, I took a photo of the inside of my flywheel showing the keyway and
the close approximation of the rivets, marked by the copper washers.
Will try to compare mine to MumblesIt would be nice to see a pic of the flywheel tab in correlation to the flywheel key. Hopefully someone reading this has one so we can rule that out. I’ve looked all over internet can’t find one.
Also after I looked at your some of your pictures I see the throttle advance moves to the right for faster so engine would spin clockwise more than likely. It would have to move to the left for faster if counterclockwise.
Yes, engine runs normal, clockwise direction. Looked at a couple HS-10 Johnson
on Youtube just to make sure!
This morning I re-cleaned the carbon brushes, their springs, and the brass bore
they go into. Also removed the brush tower screws to look underneath.
I could only lift them about 1/8" because of the wires soldered on, but
using a light and mirror I seen no signs of arcing. For the heck of it, I
put a piece of "fish" (insulating) paper under each tower, and behind
each tower along the laminates. Then I coated what I could on the
bakelite towers with Super Corona Dope. Just letting it dry for a while,
then will put it back together, and see if I can test it with the timing light.
BuccJoe
ps I am guessing if you got double fire on both cylinders after checking bakelite could be off 120 degrees or points cam is upside down which I don’t think would make a difference since it has 2 lobes but worth checking.
Prepare to be boarded!
June 28, 2017 at 7:22 pm #60547I put the magneto and flywheel back on the HD-15.
Hooked up a timing light and spun the engine over
with a drill, with the top plug wire hooked up first.
Nice steady indication near my TDC mark, with
no wild flashes that I could detect. Switched to the
bottom plug wire, and same results.
Threw the outboard in the test barrel and
finally got it to stay running by tweaking
the High and Low needles. Unfortunately,
it’s singing the same crappy, irratic tune.
Think I’m done with this one for now so
I can concentrate on other things,
but thanks for all the help Joe!Prepare to be boarded!
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