Home Forum Ask A Member 1970 85 hp V4

Viewing 10 posts - 41 through 50 (of 66 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #58657
    amuller
    Participant

      Thanks. I can’t believe I failed to check the polarity of the battery cables! Not a mistake I will every make again. Evidently the shift solenoids are polarity sensitive in some fashion. Plus, my Fluke meter is getting flaky. It’s been an interesting learning experience, with outstanding coaching from this board. Now to find my 1 5/16 socket and pop the flywheel.

      I also have a 40 hp Big Twin with the "Selectric" shifting–spring clutches I think. I’ve checked and it does shift but not gotten into it beyond that.

      #58682
      eviltwin
      Participant

        One other thing I remember, would not crank over if throttle lever was above start, even a little. Built in safety. It would start in gear and you had to be careful shifting, I did hit reverse a few times trying to put it in neutral and hitting the wrong button. Didn’t seem to harm anything. Always wanted the Johnson Controls for this reason and it was harder to dock cause you needed to hit the buttons which takes your hand away from steering or throttle. The little silver momentary switch under keyswitch was choke, as mentioned.

        #58686
        fleetwin
        Participant

          US Member - 2 Years
          quote amuller:

          quote fleetwin:

          Does this engine have spark or not? The resistance seems normal for the coil….

          It produces a nice 1/2″ spark from the coil lead when the wire to the points is scratched. Point’s don’t appear to be making, by meter, and there is no spark from the coil while cranking. So I presume the points need attention. Need to pop flywheel next.

          That “reverse cutoff spring,” 313743, $39. Is it something I should expect to have to replace? Is it important? Does this motor have some special tendency to start backwards?

          Interesting discovery: The red-painted battery terminal was on the negative cable, and the black one on the positive. So likely this setup has been connected with reverse polarity. So I expect various burn’t out diodes and suchlike. Interesting that the amplifier survived.

          Time to check the shifting again…..

          OK, so it sparks at the coil when the lead from the points is tapped to ground, but not when cranking…So, it does seem like you will have to remove the flywheel, unless the ground lead coming from the ignition point plate is not making a good connection. Perhaps the leads are frayed/broken.
          The points are probably just a little dirty, there are two sets which are gapped at .010". The anti reverse spring could be causing a problem if it is somehow stuck grounding out the circuit, doesn’t seem likely though. The anti reverse spring is probably in OK condition and does not need to be replaced, but it is a needed item and should be replaced if it is NG. I am assuming you have a decent OMC manual for this engine that will explain servicing procedures in great detail.
          Yes, if those battery cables were crossed, even for a second or two, I am quite certain the alternator rectifier diodes are shot, the shift circuit diodes may have been damaged also. We will get back to this after the ignition is straightened out. Be sure to check the resistance of the alternator windings while the flywheel is off, it is unlikely that crossed cables damaged the windings though.
          Great news, the gearcase shifts OK, I thought it would. Did you fill with OMC premium blend? Normally, I would recommend doing a water pump job, but not in this case. Again, I don’t want you digging into this thing any farther than absolutely necessary. Once the ignition is straightened out, you can search for a decent control box/wiring harness…

          #58703
          amuller
          Participant

            The flywheel popped off with no special effort. I’m not sure it was fully torqued.

            The alternator stator tests .9 ohm lead to lead and is not grounded. It’ looks fine. Somewhat to my surprise, the rectifier diodes test good with a forward voltage drop of about 0.5. I still need to check the brown diode lump related to shifting, and the "clipper" box. I take it this is clipping in the sense of spikes? I’m a bit puzzled about how the distributor itself actually works. Manual time…..

            #58711
            fleetwin
            Participant

              US Member - 2 Years

              Don’t know just how you tested that rectifier, but there are six diodes that are checked with an ohm meter set to the high scale. There are a few diodes in those shift diodes as well, the manual spells out the test procedures. The alternator winding resistance value you mention seems about right, will attempt to find a manual to confirm.
              That "clipper circuit" is a lame attempt of protecting the powerpack/amplifier from voltage spikes resulting from poor battery connections. The alternator windings are shorted/perhaps grounded when high voltage is sensed. The procedures for testing it are in the book, although a little vague/confusing. Like I said, the rectifier is usually damaged quickly, even if the cables are reversed only momentarily. I suppose there is the chance that the cables were never reversed in spite of the red tape on the negative cable.
              I would agree, the flywheel was probably not torqued properly if it came off relatively easily, be sure the tapers are clean and dry when you reassemble. The coil threads into the distributor, its voltage is routed to the rotor through a tab in the center of the distributor, the outer tab on the rotor delivers voltage to the four plug wires through copper/brass tabs on the outer edge inside the distributor. There is the possibility that the distributor/rotor is leaking/arcing causing the no spark condition, this can only be checked using coil tester to supply power to the distributor, then probing for leaks. These items are pretty expensive if you can find them, so I would no just replace them unless you can confirm they are leaking/arcing.
              Did you have a look at the points? Are they gapped correctly? Was the anti reverse spring present, was it working correctly? If the ARS is somehow jammed/stuck on the ground tab, this would cause a no spark situation. Be sure to use a little Loctite on the stator screws during reassembly.

              #58713
              jeff-register
              Participant

                US Member - 2 Years

                Much better system than the 1963 OMC Dual Deluxe. Hey you have forward no matter what!

                #58715
                fleetwin
                Participant

                  US Member - 2 Years

                  I agree, the forward gear fail safe always seemed like a good safety feature to me also. OMC claimed the coast guard didn’t like the system, maybe if was actually the OMC bean counters who didn’t like it…

                  #58766
                  amuller
                  Participant

                    Fleet, I think this is a very simple, unregulated, single-phase alternator. So it probably does have only two diodes, one on each end of the coil. The good news is that it would be easy to make a functional substitute.

                    The points are probably just in need of cleaning. The gap looks like about ten thou to me but haven’t gotten into them yet. The distributor rotor and stator look OK to me, no sign of any carbon tracks or cracks. So I’m expecting to have spark at the plugs when I put it together. Wow, those point sets are expensive: close to $75 new and $25-30 on ebay.

                    I admire the system used by West Bend on the 80 hp four: four sets of points, spaced at 90 deg, each firing it’s own coil. What could be simpler, relatively speaking?

                    As for the default-to-forward control logic, I can see pros and cons to it.

                    #58786
                    amuller
                    Participant

                      OK! Finished taking the ignition apart. Points a bit crudded up. I’ll take them apart and polish the points. (Why are these point sets so expensive?) All else seems fine, except for being a little greasy. I notice: Not a single burr turned up on a single screw head. Either this has never been apart or it was worked on by a well trained mechanic who used ground-to-size screwdrivers and otherwise knew what he was doing. So I’m challenged to do an equally good job now.

                      #58816
                      fleetwin
                      Participant

                        US Member - 2 Years
                        quote amuller:

                        Fleet, I think this is a very simple, unregulated, single-phase alternator. So it probably does have only two diodes, one on each end of the coil. The good news is that it would be easy to make a functional substitute.

                        The points are probably just in need of cleaning. The gap looks like about ten thou to me but haven’t gotten into them yet. The distributor rotor and stator look OK to me, no sign of any carbon tracks or cracks. So I’m expecting to have spark at the plugs when I put it together. Wow, those point sets are expensive: close to $75 new and $25-30 on ebay.

                        I admire the system used by West Bend on the 80 hp four: four sets of points, spaced at 90 deg, each firing it’s own coil. What could be simpler, relatively speaking?

                        As for the default-to-forward control logic, I can see pros and cons to it.

                        Yes, simple unregulated charging system….But, I think there are four diodes…Here are the simple resistance checks….
                        Ohm meter on high scale with rectifier leads isolated from all others and ground:
                        Connect one ohm meter lead to the rectifier case/ground
                        Now connect the other ohm meter lead to each of the two yellow leads, one at a time. You will either see an infinite reading, or some high reading less than infinity, you should see the same open or less than infinite reading on both tests.
                        Now, swap the ohm meter leads so the other ohm meter lead is connected to the rectifier/ground. Again, you will see either an infinite reading, or some high reading less than infinity. You should see the opposite readings than noted in the first test.
                        Next, you will connect one of the ohm meter leads to the red rectifier lead. Connect the other ohm meter lead to each of the rectifier yellow leads one at a time. You will see either the infinite or high reading on both leads.
                        Finally, swap the ohm meter leads and repeat the above test. You should see the opposite readings you saw in the previous test….
                        Any shorted or open diodes mean the rectifier is shot….New/used but good ones are easy to find and affordable, no need to make one up….

                        There are also two "shift diodes" in this system, this unit is affectionately known as the "monkey balls". I’m pretty sure there are only two diodes in this critter. This thing is here to supply current from the alternator to the shift solenoids after the key is turned off but the flywheel is still spinning. Otherwise, the engine would slam into forward gear when the key is turned off…
                        The resistance tests are pretty similar to the rectifier tests, just less diodes to check.
                        Ohm meter on high scale, shift diode leads isolated from all others and ground:
                        Connect one ohm meter lead to the diode purple lead, then connect the other meter lead to each of its yellow leads, one at a time….Note the readings, either infinity or a high reading, both should be the same.
                        Now, swap the ohm meter leads and repeat the above test. You should see the opposite readings noted in the above test.
                        Any shorted or open diodes mean this thing needs to be replaced. A messed up shift diode could certainly affect alternator output as well.

                      Viewing 10 posts - 41 through 50 (of 66 total)
                      • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.