Home Forum Ask A Member UPDATE: 48? GG9014 Sea King Spark Leakage Frustrated..

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  • #285719
    John Gragg
    Participant

      US Member

      So I am almost done with this restoration. New pistons, rings, seals, gear case seals (except for driveshaft seal), gaskets, fully overhauled carb etc.

      I put the compression gauge (very good gauge, but did not spend $300 either). Pre overhaul ~70 psi both holes. Now 88-90 both holes. Yes, a bit of TWC oil in each cylinder to protect all the virgin parts, but still a great improvement.

      I was performing a spark check with the gap tester. Basic issue: cylinder #2 coil is jumping from the solder joint to the closest laminate screw. Here is the strange part, please read carefully. When I close the gap in the spark checker I get a pretty strong blue spark but I’m not jumping reliably more than 1/8″. After seeing this for a few seconds I open the gap 1/2 turn of the screw at a time. I MIGHT get good spark the first turn, but one more turn and now my spark is intermittent at best, if not non-existent except the spark is now jumping from the #2 solder joint to the closest laminate screw.

      #1 cylinder does somewhat the same, except I can add a bit more gap before I lose it. On cylinder #1 the spark loss is to the mag plate. I can see tiny sparks jumping under the coil core.

      Points were refreshed 100% (shiny and parallel). Spark plug wires brand new. Coils tested good (don’t remember numbers) and condensers (passive test, not under load) tested okay as well. (although one looks dicey). Coil heels gapped at .010 to .012 (shim stock used was .010, so pretty dang close to that).

      Retested points. 100% okay.

      Correct me if I’m wrong here, I’d like to try my hand here…

      I have excessive resistance somewhere, correct? Since my spark won’t leave point A and go to point B the (resistance?) in my setup is forcing the spark to take the path of least resistance, yes?

      Where to start? I’m thinking condensers?

      As always, appreciate any help I can get?

      UPDATE:

      Took the mag plate off, went through everything including checking for the points to lose continuity when opened. I even removed and took the points sets apart. All is well.

      Reinstalled and tested. I also isolated the solder joint with some carefully placed (temporary) electrical tape. No grounding anymore.

      Not sure why, but #1 has stopped grounding as well.

      I might have almost 1/4″ spark gap on #2 now, not sure if the reason is I replaced that condenser or not. (the one in the photo)

      Number 1 might have 3/16″, but not reliably. I can almost rely on 1/8″, but not 100%. Don’t understand it???

      I’m thinking weak coils.

      Just thinking out loud here, I think the answer is no but here goes. I greased the sleeve that fits into the mag plate and over the circular mounting area on the crankcase with grease. Should this be di-electric grease? I have already tested a couple of motors where I overhauled the mag plate and never had an issue, but just need to ask…

      Lastly!!!!! I’m not sure if I included this at some point: Coils are 5.69k and 5.70k (LOW?????)

      P.S. – Not that it matters, but I put 48? because the model plate is missing the model # stamped in. It has a serial number, but not a model #. Based on the limited parts diagram offered for 1948, I am guessing at a 48. Just a trival note, doesn’t really affect the conversation.

      Best Regards,

      John Gragg
      RIverside, CA

      Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

      48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
      49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
      48 Johnson TD20
      49 Johnson TD20
      54 Johnson QD15
      55 Johnson CD12

      #285720
      crosbyman
      Participant

        Canada Member - 2 Years

        if  is easier to jump from the solder joint to the laminate and that  distance is greater  than the plug gap  than yes  electricty follows  what  it senses as the shortest resistance path compare the  plug wire+ boot+ gap  distance .

        Just make certain the  engine frame body used as the  ground reference  for the plug   is  also interconnected  with the magneto base. … otherwise the coil  will see just the laminate as a return path

        plug wires should be solid strand and offer pretty much 0 ohms to the spark path  from the solder joint to the  plug boot!

        in any event   why not  try  some corona dope  on the solder joint to  make it  harder  for the  spark to jump to the laminate… hopefully HV  it will be redirected  to the  lesser  second best path… the sparkplug  🙂

        MG Chemicals 4226 Super Corona Dope, 55 ml Liquid Bottle : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

         

        Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

        #285721
        Steve Martin
        Participant

          US Member

          John, how are you connecting the spark tester?  Are you connecting to ground or are you connecting to the spark plug?  If the plug, you will get the result you are having.

          #285722
          John Gragg
          Participant

            US Member

            Oops

            Best Regards,

            John Gragg
            RIverside, CA

            Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

            48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
            49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
            48 Johnson TD20
            49 Johnson TD20
            54 Johnson QD15
            55 Johnson CD12

            #285724
            John Gragg
            Participant

              US Member

              Hello again all,

              More info in case it helps.

              1. I’m sure everyone understood what I meant, but both coils were jumping during testing. Just to a lesser/greater degree when testing the coil in question.
              2. I tested both coils:
                1. #1 = 5.69k ohms
                2.  #2 = 5.70k ohms
              3. Condensers:
                1.  #1 = .22 micro farad
                2. #2 = .182 micro farad

              Just checked resistance in both wires. Both dead nuts 0.00

              Forgot to mention, primary both sides starts at .3 and drops within a second to .2

              Picture attached of cap end of condenser for #2. Hard to see but the cap is a bit extruded from the housing (.030 or so).

               

              Thanks,

              Best Regards,

              John Gragg
              RIverside, CA

              Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

              48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
              49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
              48 Johnson TD20
              49 Johnson TD20
              54 Johnson QD15
              55 Johnson CD12

              #285725
              John Gragg
              Participant

                US Member

                John, how are you connecting the spark tester?  Are you connecting to ground or are you connecting to the spark plug?  If the plug, you will get the result you are having.

                Hi Steve,

                One side inserted into spark plug boot, other side is grounded to the carburetor (only part of the motor not painted.

                More info in case it helps.

                1. I’m sure everyone understood what I meant, but both coils were jumping during testing. Just to a lesser/greater degree when testing the coil in question.
                2. I tested both coils:
                  1. #1 = 5.69k ohms
                  2.  #2 = 5.70k ohms
                3. Condensers:
                  1.  #1 = .22 micro farad
                  2. #2 = .182 micro farad

                Just checked resistance in both wires. Both dead nuts 0.00

                Forgot to mention, primary both sides starts at .3 and drops within a second to .2

                Picture attached of cap end of condenser for #2. Hard to see but the cap is a bit extruded from the housing (.030 or so).

                 

                Thanks,

                Best Regards,

                John Gragg
                RIverside, CA

                Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                48 Johnson TD20
                49 Johnson TD20
                54 Johnson QD15
                55 Johnson CD12

                #285731
                joecb
                Participant

                  US Member

                  Picking up on what crosbyman said…try your test again but add a temporary ground wire from the mag plate to a good engine ground.

                  Joe B

                  #285732
                  John Gragg
                  Participant

                    US Member

                    Just make certain the  engine frame body used as the  ground reference  for the plug   is  also interconnected  with the magneto base. … otherwise the coil  will see just the laminate as a return path

                      * I’m not sure how any other ground reference would be possible? The entire motor is essentially isolated from the magneto plate sans the mag plate/crankcase mounting (not sure what to call it). But yes, that is the only attempt at grounding the mag plate.

                    plug wire+ boot+ gap  distance

                    May I ask you to clarify? I’m guessing you want me to evaluate where the path of least resistance is in my system? If so:

                    Wire = 0.00

                    Boot = 0.00 (rubber, non-conductive)

                    Gap distance (nominal. Trying to get to 3/8 to 5/16)

                    Solder joint to laminate is much greater than that. So, in theory, the gap checker should fire long before the coil grounds out to the laminate. That still leaves the question of the other coil grounding to the mag plate.

                    Do I remember correctly that a motor should not be rotated without a plug installed to avoid damaging (don’t remember what)?

                    I was doing that when testing. Test #1, #2 wire was left without a plug in the wire. Vice-versa.

                    Thanks for the help!

                    Best Regards,

                     

                    John Gragg
                    RIverside, CA

                    Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                    48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                    49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                    48 Johnson TD20
                    49 Johnson TD20
                    54 Johnson QD15
                    55 Johnson CD12

                    #285733
                    John Gragg
                    Participant

                      US Member

                      Picking up on what crosbyman said…try your test again but add a temporary ground wire from the mag plate to a good engine ground.

                      Joe B

                      Good idea…

                      Will do.

                      I have the mag plate off right now, testing and double checking a bunch of values.

                      I’ll check in tomorrow.

                      Best Regards,

                      John Gragg
                      RIverside, CA

                      Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                      48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                      49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                      48 Johnson TD20
                      49 Johnson TD20
                      54 Johnson QD15
                      55 Johnson CD12

                      #285736
                      John Gragg
                      Participant

                        US Member

                        if  is easier to jump from the solder joint to the laminate and that  distance is greater  than the plug gap  than yes  electricty follows  what  it senses as the shortest resistance path compare the  plug wire+ boot+ gap  distance .

                        Just make certain the  engine frame body used as the  ground reference  for the plug   is  also interconnected  with the magneto base. … otherwise the coil  will see just the laminate as a return path

                        plug wires should be solid strand and offer pretty much 0 ohms to the spark path  from the solder joint to the  plug boot!

                        in any event   why not  try  some corona dope  on the solder joint to  make it  harder  for the  spark to jump to the laminate… hopefully HV  it will be redirected  to the  lesser  second best path… the sparkplug  🙂

                        MG Chemicals 4226 Super Corona Dope, 55 ml Liquid Bottle : Amazon.ca: Health & Personal Care

                         

                        Is there a substitute for the dope? Not available for shipping to good ole’ California

                        Thanks

                        John Gragg
                        RIverside, CA

                        Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                        48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                        49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                        48 Johnson TD20
                        49 Johnson TD20
                        54 Johnson QD15
                        55 Johnson CD12

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