Home Forum Ask A Member 57 35hp – wiring questions please?

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  • #292387
    John Gragg
    Participant

      US Member

      Hello All,

      So a few questions…

      1. Has anyone ever built a remote start (bench/test) system for the electric start versions of the RDE-19 and RDE-19? If so, any available pics or diagrams?

      2. I’ve been studying the wiring diagrams (see attached) on Peter’s NYMarine website and I’m confused. There is a white wire leading from the solenoid (becomes black at the connector) that shows as connecting to the mercury switch. The switch shows as grounded on the other side of the switch itself. On my motor that ground was supplied by a 2nd wire attached to the same screw on the throttle gear. Is the black wire that I’m speaking about supposed to join the mercury switch wire at the middle post on the vacuum cutout switch? Cuz that is where my two wires were when I got this motor.

      I do want to keep the cutout as well as the merc switch, so any help in that regard would be appreciated.

      3. The white wire I referenced above.. what does it do? I can’t figure out the whole cutout system??? If anyone has a tutorial on that I’d love to read it.

       

      TIA

      Best Regards

      John Gragg

      John Gragg
      RIverside, CA

      Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

      48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
      49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
      48 Johnson TD20
      49 Johnson TD20
      54 Johnson QD15
      55 Johnson CD12
      57 Johnson RJE-19M
      57 Johnson RDE-19

      #292389
      crosbyman
      Participant

        Canada Member - 2 Years

        the white wire is the ground side of the starter relay which must go to a ground referrence (mercury switch)   typically if the engine is tilted UP the mercury contacts will be open  and ground reference is lost  and starting will be impossible.

         

         

        the vacum (cut-out) switch where your mercury switch meets is itself normally NOT grounded leaving the mercury switch to do it’s job by itself.

        the vacum switch is  there to kill 50% of the ignition has described in the manual  and since you  would not be  turning the key to START  during that event    the  2 wires  would not interfeer between themselves.

        they work together.. the Mercury switch PREVENTS starting  during tilt up     The vacum switch kills 50% of the ignition by grounding the lower plug (see manual)   see diagram from MarineTech site

         

         

        Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

        #292393
        John Gragg
        Participant

          US Member

          So, looking at the cutout switch…

          The center post goes to the magneto.

          Do the other two black wires represent wires landed on the housing of the cutout switch?

          If I’m looking at the diagram correctly that’s what I’m seeing. Am I correct?

          Also where is the Mercury switch getting its ground reference? I’m not in my garage right now but if memory serves me isn’t the throttle gear that the Mercury switch attaches to plastic? So there is no ground reference? On my motor there was a manually installed single wire to ground that attached to the Mercury switch housing at the throttle gear. I will send a picture tomorrow

           

          Thx!

          John Gragg
          RIverside, CA

          Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

          48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
          49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
          48 Johnson TD20
          49 Johnson TD20
          54 Johnson QD15
          55 Johnson CD12
          57 Johnson RJE-19M
          57 Johnson RDE-19

          #292394
          John Gragg
          Participant

            US Member

            I couln’t wait to sent a pic so I can hopefully get an early reply and know what the heck is going on…

            Hopefully you can see:

            The pigtail of the mercury switch is attached to the frame of the cutout switch.

            The black wire from the internal harness (which was the white wire attached to the 2nd starter solenoid pole) is also attached to the frame of the cutout switch.

            There is a white wire attached to the frame of the mercury switch on one end and to ground on the other.

            The Cyl #2 cutout wire is attached from the middle terminal of the cutout switch to the #2 cyl points.

            Hope this helps you see what I have and maybe you can tell me how far off I am?

            THanks!

            John Gragg
            RIverside, CA

            Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

            48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
            49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
            48 Johnson TD20
            49 Johnson TD20
            54 Johnson QD15
            55 Johnson CD12
            57 Johnson RJE-19M
            57 Johnson RDE-19

            #292397
            crosbyman
            Participant

              Canada Member - 2 Years

              let’s backtrack a bit…

              I  erroneously indicated your mercury switch was for interrupting the START process  should the motor be tilted up….. a comment based on my old Merc .

              ….since you picture shows a mercury switch associated with the throttle it may in fact be a safety to prevent START in case the throttle if set to high above START

              In either  situation (Mercury  or  OMC )  the mercury switch  is there to OPEN the solenoid start  circuit as a safety device.   WHen  your solenoid loose this critital ground  no current  would be able to (flow)  energize the starter solenoid.

              This is easy enough  to test …setting the throttle to FAST  should prevent the start solenoid  from doing it’s job and  keep you from going for  swim !

              As to the kill circuit using the vacum  it is well describded in the manual.

              that is my understanding of it anyway… have you  got the motor  working  ??

              vacum switch wise it would be a very temporary interruption of ignition during rapid RPM drops.   but the start circuitry should allow the starter to get you going.

               

              see manual 492-493 and  other pages

               

               

              Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

              #292405
              John Gragg
              Participant

                US Member

                Thanks Crosbyman,

                No, motor is not yet running. Cart before the horse? Yea, probably. But while I’m waiting on a few essential tune-up and life-blood parts I’ve been messing with some of the other stuff I haven’t yet encountered on my uber-simplistic TD20s and my CD12 and QD15.  Trying to get myself educated on how this all works together.

                The motor is one of 2 35HPs I picked up last month. Great compression, and after a magneto rebuild excellent spark. It should run, assuming I can get the wiring all sorted out.

                I’ll take your comments and reread the bible portion on this topic and see if I can come up with an answer.

                Thanks for the help.

                Anyone else have any information on this wiring please chime in?

                Best Regards,

                John Gragg
                RIverside, CA

                Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                48 Johnson TD20
                49 Johnson TD20
                54 Johnson QD15
                55 Johnson CD12
                57 Johnson RJE-19M
                57 Johnson RDE-19

                #292406
                John Gragg
                Participant

                  US Member

                  Okay,

                  So I setup sort of a bench testing of how these components work together. I have 50% of it figured out, I think.

                  Yes, the mercury switch appears to be in place to provide ground to the frame of the cutout switch so that when excessive vacuum builds up at low speeds there is a temporary cutout of cyl #2. I have tested it with a meter and it all does what it is supposed to do and the theory appears to be exactly what the book says.

                  Now, looking at the NYMARINE wiring diagram…

                  I attached a power supply to my brand new 4 pole starter solenoid. I put 12v+ to the large lug on the same side of the solenoid where the small pole has the “s” mark. I grounded the solenoid (to the mounting tabs) with the – side of the power supply. I then ran a (starter) switch wire from the same 12v+ pole and when I land that power wire to the “s” terminal I get power to the other large lug on the other side of the solenoid. Excellent, sort of… Here’s the kicker. I also get 12v power to the 2nd small terminal next to the “s” terminal. Not a huge deal, if this were an automobile. Cuz that terminal is meant to send 12v power to the coil. In this case, however, Peter’s drawing shows that 2nd terminal as being wired through the motor connector and somehow landing on the mercury switch? How can that be? Sending 12v power directly to a ground source results in sparky-spark, no?

                  Can anyone enlighten me on what the 411 is here on that one wire? It’s white on the boat side and turns black on the motor side. Supposedly goes to the mercury switch (On my motor I found it connected to the vacuum cutout switch). Either way, it has power during starting which will do bad things since both the mercury switch AND the cutout switch are negative reference, no?

                  Thanks!

                  John Gragg
                  RIverside, CA

                  Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                  48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                  49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                  48 Johnson TD20
                  49 Johnson TD20
                  54 Johnson QD15
                  55 Johnson CD12
                  57 Johnson RJE-19M
                  57 Johnson RDE-19

                  #292409
                  crosbyman
                  Participant

                    Canada Member - 2 Years

                    I don’t  know what you have  there but

                    the solenoid has 2 small control posts     & 2  big posts allowing battery high current to reach the starter  while…. the inner small coil  gets battery from the key  START  and  the other side is grounded via whatever safety device  hooks up to it to prevent false starts.

                     

                    as far as I know    NO VOLTAGE   should pass between  a large post to a small post.      the big posts being simple relay in and out  lugs…

                    isolated from the rest of the world

                     

                    the  small posts control the  solenoid inner electromagnet  to close the contacts  when starting.   the marine tech drawing is what you should use imho.

                     

                     

                    Joining AOMCI has priviledges 🙂

                    1 user thanked author for this post.
                    #292420
                    frankr
                    Participant

                      US MEMBER PAY BY CHECK

                      I am going to try to cut through some of the confusion here——from memory, lacking an official 1957 parts book or wiring diagram.
                      1. 1957 was kind of an oddball.
                      2. There are two kinds of starter solenoids, looking exactly alike. But they are different inside. A car (Ford) type sends 12V to the coil, bypassing the ignition resistor while cranking. That is not the one you want because that 12V cranking whallop will burn the wire off the mercury switch. The type used on OMC outboards has the same two small terminals, but they are connected to the two ends of the pull-in coil inside. When you operate the key or button to start, 12V is sent to one of the small terminals, goes through the pull-in coil, and out the other small terminal, finally to ground through the closed mercury switch. The coil resistance provides a voltage drop so the mercury switch does not “see” a full 12V.

                      The mercury switch is either open or closed, according to throttle position. If closed, the solenoid wire is grounded, and the motor will crank. If open, the solenoid wire is not grounded, and the motor will not crank. Simple as that. Note: because the mercury switch is mounted on a moving part the ground is not reliable. That is why the mercury switch body is grounded by a separate wire.

                      All this was changed in 1958, and the one diagram posted above is not correct for 1957.

                      1 user thanked author for this post.
                      #292429
                      John Gragg
                      Participant

                        US Member

                        Thx Frank. Which diagram is incorrect? The NYMARINE or the marine tech?

                        Now on to ordering a proper solenoid…

                        Can you confirm by chance that the ARCO SW081 is a suitable replacement, or the SW058?

                        Lastly, looking at a ton of info from various sources, am I correct in assuming that the only wire to be terminated on the center post of the vacuum cutout is the one to cyl #2? That leaves the mercury switch and the solenoid wire which it seems are to be landed together on the frame post of the vacuum switch?

                        Thx!

                        Best,

                        John Gragg
                        RIverside, CA

                        Just starting in the hobby, please be patient.

                        48 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                        49 Sea King 5hp GG9014A
                        48 Johnson TD20
                        49 Johnson TD20
                        54 Johnson QD15
                        55 Johnson CD12
                        57 Johnson RJE-19M
                        57 Johnson RDE-19

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