Canada Member - 2 Years
Topics: 428May 24, 2015 at 3:22 am #16769
With the price of offshore digital ohm meters/multi testers which can split a one ohm reading into tenths so affordable now, maybe it’s time to brush the moths off the wallet and buy some new tools. 😕May 24, 2015 at 3:25 am #16770
In case any clarification is required, you can think of event #1 as "magneto timing" and event #2 as "ignition timing".
Magneto timing ensures that a good, strong spark is ready, on-tap when it’s called for – ignition timing sets that spark off at precisely the right moment (in terms of crankshaft position, usually measured in degrees before top-dead-center "BTDC".May 24, 2015 at 3:27 am #16771quote Mumbles:
You’ve got that right. I suggest that particular RS meter as I own two of them, and know them to be available, inexpensive, versatile and trustworthy.May 25, 2015 at 2:52 am #16809
ETA: Apparently, scotty deleted his post while I was writing my reply..quote scotty:
You only need to disconnect the lead between the points & coil if you don’t have an instrument (meter, buzz-box) which is capable of reacting to the small change in resistance when the points open. Seems like that is pretty clear now, which is good.quote :
There’s nothing inherently ‘wrong’ with analog meters, that would prevent use in this application. It’s just that virtually all inexpensive, service-grade analog meters aren’t sufficiently sensitive / precise to detect and display the slight (<1 ohm) shift.
This said, there are plenty of analog meters that are quite capable of this job, but they tend to end up in laboratory / research applications, rather than on the mechanic’s bench.quote :
And that’s another issue.. to me, it says that your points assemblies aren’t really secure to the stator plate. Either that, or you’re being too rough with them when you torque the screws that secure the wire contacts. Swapping wires around shouldn’t change timing geometry, but it can, if the points aren’t firmly in place when you play with the screws,
US Member - 2 Years
Topics: 18May 25, 2015 at 3:03 am #16811
Ignition plates sometime have some slop from wear which can affect timing and the readings we are counting on.
US Member - 1 Year
Topics: 155May 26, 2015 at 1:31 pm #16924quote legendre:
Event #1, is the peak flux through the ignition coil,
which is the point where the spark is the strongest.
Event #1’s range cannot be adjusted, it’s a function
of the relationship between the rotor magnet(s) and
the ignition coil(s) – and that’s fixed at the factory by
the placement of coils, magnets and flywheel keyways.
In the magneto we are discussing, with points for each coil,
event 1 is adjustable and is accomplished by adjusting
the points and it occurs at the exact point that the polarity
changes when the magnet passes over the coil as it has been
explained to me.
Event #2 is the correct point where the plugs must fire the cylinder(s).
In the magneto we are discussing this is accomplished
by moving the plate the ignition components are mounted
A automotive distributor (usually) only having 1 set of points, a rotor
to assign the spark to each cylinder, a source for current rather
than creating it, and components to adjust the timing only
clouds the issue as its not relatable.
US Member - 2 Years
Topics: 1May 26, 2015 at 2:33 pm #16926
Tubs stated it well. The points gap should be set so that event #1 occurs when the flux in the coil is changing most rapidly. I.e. the point at which the flux polarity changes. The point of rapid change in flux is set by the geometry of the magnets, coil laminations and position of the flywheel (set by the flywheel key). Rapid change in flux results in maximum current in the primary coil, which in turn results in a hot spark when the points open.
Note that the flywheel key sets the relative position of the flywheel magnets, and the points cam. This is what allows a particular points gap to open the points at the proper time for event #1. A timing tool allows for more precise timing, as it eliminates the tolerances of the cam, eccentricity of the crankshaft, and difficulty is setting the gap precisely.
Event #2, as stated by Tubs, is the preferred timing for best combustion, and is set by the position of the magneto plate with reference to the crankshaft and piston.
John VanMay 26, 2015 at 7:29 pm #16946
If what you’re saying were correct, then there would be no need for the recently-discussed OMC timing tool.. think about it:
The magneto rotor could be marked with a line at the factory for magnetic dead-center, and a corresponding mark could be placed dead-center on the coil’s pole shoe. Then it would be simply a matter of adjusting the points to open when the two marks came into alignment – as that would be the magnetic dead-center point, hence the AC zero crossing which is the point of maximum primary current and strongest spark.
Absent the factory-made marks, it would be trivial to make your own set of marks using nothing more than a flexible ruler and scratch-awl. Again, it would obsolete the OMC timing tool.
Again, event #1 is a range, not a specific angular position per se. Look at the shape of a sine wave – you can see that it is at or near the point of maximum current for about 22′ of the cycle. Event #2 (the firing of the spark plug) can occur at any point across that range, and have nearly full spark energy. Sure, max current is at the peak, but allowing 11′ either side of peak would give what, about 90-95% of max? That’s perfectly acceptable.
So ask yourself, now, why does that OMC timing tool exist? It exists, because event #1 is taken care of by the design engineers and careful manufacturing, and no normal wear & tear will ever alter the range of event #1. Event #2 however needs to be precisely set – it’s not a range, it’s a fixed angle BTDC at a stated RPM.May 26, 2015 at 7:34 pm #16947
Incidentally, the situation with the magneto is really no different than with a conventional automotive-type battery, point & coil system.
In the automotive system, event #1 is timed by adjusting the dwell angle, which is set to the best compromise between maximum spark energy / reliability and coil operating temperature.
Then event #2 – the ‘real’ ignition timing is usually adjusted by turning the distributor housing after loosening the base clamp screw. And just as with our magnetos, changing the point gap in the automotive system affects both events #1 and #2 – that is, it alters both spark timing and energy.
Same situation, really, just with a couple different considerations.
US Member - 2 Years
Topics: 18May 26, 2015 at 11:46 pm #16967
Would it be a correct assumption that max motor output would be achieved by setting the timing just before the onset of spark knock? I’d like to get the max out of my 57 35hp OMC but of course don’t want to cause engine damage. I understand that spark knock is difficult to hear in a wide open outboard motor. Thoughts?May 27, 2015 at 12:09 am #16971quote VinTin:
Per my understanding, general theory states that, for a given RPM, more advance is better, so long as it’s not causing spark-knock / detonation. But there are a lot of variables and there’s no way to simply say that more advance will or will not benefit your engine.
If you want to play, I’d trial & error it.. while watching cylinder head temperatures (if possible) and frequently checking the plugs. A higher octane fuel will also tend to tolerate more advanced timing. +Shrug+May 27, 2015 at 12:10 am #16972quote legendre:
ETA: Not sure how I managed this, but I’ve tried to delete the post several times. System says I can’t.
Topics: 32May 27, 2015 at 2:28 am #16995
Timing of the spark is only a range relative to TDC.
The timing of points opening ("event #1") is a fixed relationship between the coil "shoe" and the position of the magnet (which has a fixed relationship to the high point on the cam, since both the flywheel and the cam are keyed onto the crankshaft. This is why you can adjust the points at any throttle setting.
Timing of the spark relative to TDC at a given throttle position (& carb butterfly position) controlled by the "link and sync" adjustment cam.May 27, 2015 at 2:53 am #17001quote Phil B:
Sure.. but what defines the upper & lower bounds?
Let’s just ignore the fact that the ignition timing changes with mag lever / throttle position.. and view the motor at full speed, max RPM and hence, max ignition advance.. just as with any motor, running at full speed and full advance.
What defines that final, high-RPM timing angle figure? Is it a certain, factory-specified number of degrees BTDC (as with every other engine), or just wherever it happens to end up, if ‘timing’ is set for the moment of max spark energy – on an OMC?
Are you saying that OMC timing theory is literally different from virtually every other engine out there? Every other engine I’ve encountered has ignition timing specified in degrees BTDC – but per you, and those who agree with you, that’s out the window. You’re claiming that the spark should fire at the moment of greatest energy, and the actual ignition event just falls where it may.
I don’t buy it. And again, ask yourselves: Why does the OMC timing tool exist?
Topics: 32May 27, 2015 at 3:55 am #17002quote legendre:
The timing tool, or "gapping the points" exist to adjust timing of the spark (the points opening) relative to the position of the coil & magnet.
Timing of the spark relative to TDC (advance) is controlled by the position of the magneto plate (which also controls the throttle via the magneto plate cam)
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